Frazier We're speaking with the Executive Director of Mississippi Public Broadcasting, Royal Ailes.
Congress has approved taking back $9.1 billion from the budget already passed by lawmakers, and that includes 1.1 million earmarked for NPR and PBS. And he's here to talk to us about that, explain what's taking place and what it means for Mississippians and for the future of public broadcasting in the state. We appreciate you taking the time to speak with us so that we can go over this.
So first off, that 1.1 billion, that's for all stations. How much is Mississippi? How much are we losing at MPB?
Ails Over two million, two million and some change is what we get allocated to us every year. So that money is primarily, 97% of that money is used for national programming. It's not used for local programming or salaries. It's used for National Programming. […]our affiliation fees was in PBS and NPR.
Frazier So when you talk about national programming, give us an example of what that is.
Ails It's all about the content that we get from the primary channel that we have with PBS. It's also Passport, it's also PBS Kids.
Frazier Is that morning edition too?
Ails That's NPR. NPR is the morning drive on radio, the two and a half hours that we give with them Monday through Friday, and the two hours we give them on the afternoon from four to six that we purchase from them. And then we also purchased a total of 16 hours overall for the week that we get from NPR. We selected several other purchases every year that we air from NPR. So at the end of the day, […] $1.5 [million] goes to PBS and $350 [thousand] goes to NPR.
Frazier Okay, so we're getting programming from both entities.
Ails Yep. All they are at the end of the day, they're just programming deliverers. We're buying programming. They're no different than any other programming service that's out there. It's just that PBS and NPR, they call themselves networks because they do supply a lot of content on the back-end that we get to use, PBS Kids and Passport for our members. But I've always looked at them as, they're content deliverers pretty much and that's how we ought to look at that.
Frazier So what is the Corporation for Public Broadcasting in relation to this?
Ails CPB was created in 1965 to be the oversight seer for public television at the time. That was created by Lyndon Johnson, President Johnson. The goal here was they would funnel, and they've done it this way, they would funnel federal funds to them and then they would disperse that out to stations like us, public broadcasting entities with an educational television and radio license. So our goal here is we're not like the commercial stations. We don't get to do commercial. Like the car guys, things like that, we don't get to do any of that kind of advertising. We're completely different than the commercial guys. The goal for us is to be involved in our communities, to deliver content that changes lives, lifts up people, but also be in the community, mission-based programming, mission- based engagement with the people that we serve. Commercial stations don't do that. We're the only station that does that in the sense that we're actually in the community delivering content delivering educational material to the folks at home. For example, PBS Kids, head start in this state is not that strong, and a lot of folks in rural Mississippi don't have a daycare nearby, so they have to help their kids at home take care of the kids at the house. Well, if mom and dad are busy, they can't focus in on early childhood content. That's where PBS Kids come in. We have thousands of kids coming in every month. To PBS Kids through our website and through our app to download content for the kids, which is pretty remarkable that we are the head start for the state pretty much. And that's going to be affected, possibly.
Frazier How so?
Ails We don't know yet. There's a lot of unknowns at the moment.
Frazier What do you know in terms of...
Ails Not much. We don't know much. We just know that this got passed. We know that NPR and PBS are working on making their business changes to the stations and what that's gonna look like. And we just don't what that looks like yet. We're gonna start having meetings this week with the two entities, but we don't know. We're still waiting on more information from them to figure out what tomorrow will look like as far as the business model goes. If there is a business model, I'm sure there is. I just don't know what it's going to look like.
Frazier We did hear from the content director that one children's program has already been removed. Is that the case?
Ails I believe that is with making children's content for PBS Kids. That was removed where they're not developing any more content. That money was taken away immediately. So that has stopped. But there's still a lot of content in the chain, in the pipeline that families can access. I'm not too worried about that. I'm more concerned with how the local stations like MPB will still gain access to PBS Kids because there's a dollar figure tied to that.
Frazier How much is it?
Ails Well, it's all tied in your appropriation fee to PBS, what their affiliation fee is. In that 1.5, that gives us access to that platform. We don't know what changes are coming. We don't know if there's gonna be an a-la-carte system that we can pay for. We don't know anything yet. There's just a lot of unknowns until we get through these next couple months with PBS and NPR.
Frazier How important in your estimation are these programs to Mississippians? Are you hearing from people? Are people calling and asking questions?
Ails Not yet, because the word is just now starting to get out. But I expect more calls will be coming in. We have put out some messaging on social media since Friday. And that has garnered a lot of clicks. And people are watching it and listening to it. So we know that the message is getting out. We just have to be able to give a plan at some point of what we're going to do. And we don't know what that plan is yet.
Frazier Have you thought about, do you have like a plan B for how to fill the void if you do lose some programming?
Ails Well, if we were to not be able to afford PBS, because they don't change their structures of their affiliation fees, because that's the only way we could afford it, was through CPB using federal funding to do that, then we would go the route of independent, be an independent public TV station.
Frazier What does that mean?
Ails That means we're not a PBS affiliate. Can you do that? Oh, yeah, I did that before at another station. Not a problem. I'm not worried about that. Getting content on the broadcast side is not a problem. There's a lot of content out there for public media. The back end is the harder part. The PBS Kids is the hard part. There is no second plan B for missing PBS Kids. It's here or it's gone.
Frazier So that's crucial.
Ails That's very crucial for us and we gotta figure out how we can afford it. I mean, once they put out their new model for their restructure of what it's going to cost to be an affiliate, we just don't know.
Frazier Would going independent mean the end of Morning Edition, the end...
Ails Don't know. Again, we got to know what their structure is for the rights, the fees that we have to come up with. I hope not. I don't want it to be gone. I mean, we just got to figure out what all these costs are going to be. I think they're going to drop in costs, which is great, but how much? Because we only have the federal… The state funding I get from the legislature, which has been gracious to us, cover salaries. So we're not gonna use state dollars for this stuff. We have to figure out another way of fundraising to cover the costs. So it's gonna be crucial of what their structure will be coming to the stations going forward. I think we'll know in the next 30 days what that will look like. We already have meetings set up this week, but we just don't know what it all will pan out to be yet.
Frazier And when you say meeting set up, that's with.
Ails PBS and NPR.
Frazier Underwriting, what role does underwriting play in this?
Ails Underwriting is a big part of our budget, and keep in mind, CPB...
Frazier And some people might say that's a commercial. What's the difference?
Ails The difference is how you structure the messaging. No call to action. You know, the car guy is Sunday, Sunday, Sunday, by today, we're the best in town. You can't do that kind of language for our structure of underwriting. You can have for-profit businesses support us and get the messaging out, like Blue Cross Blue Shield is one of our great partners, fantastic partner to have. We just have to figure out how we structure the messaging, we've always had that issue. That's always been a thing for us, but we've always been able to work with our corporate partners to get their branding out and get their messaging out to show that they do support MPB and what we do here for the people of this state because we are mission driven.
Frazier And our mission, let's talk about the mission. I know in the mornings, I'm the morning edition host, I do weather throughout the morning. If there are tornado warnings, I let people know about that, whatever is going on, hurricane warnings, et cetera. Would there be another way to get this information out without MPB statewide?
Ails Well, the only way that would ever cease is if we ceased. We will always be able to get that. I mean, that's not going to stop. We'll always get the weather allerts to you now. That's one of the reasons why we were created in 1968, was because of education and weather alerts. Because you've got to remember, the history here is that there were some hurricanes in the 60s that people didn't know about were going to hit. And so the reason why they created MPB, one of them, two reasons, or three reasons actually, was to weather alert. Let people know storms are coming and what to do in the aftermath of a storm. That's why we exist. Remember Katrina, we were the only station on radio that was on the air after during the hurricane, after it hit, giving life saving information of where to go, where to get water, what to get, how to get food, what do for shelter. We were the ones on the Air doing that because everybody else had gone off the air. So at the end of the day, that's not gonna stop. When people get their silver alert or their amber alerts on their phone, that comes through our backbone from the state police when they put those out. We deliver that to your phone every time it goes out. That's not going to stop. That has nothing to do with CPB. That's all on the state side. So we are here to continue that service and that mission of delivering weather alerts, amber alerts, and silver alerts. That's gonna stop
Frazier Talk about education. We have an education department here. I'm back in news and working on news, but we have a whole education division. Explain what they do.
Ails One of the other two of the three reasons we exist is because of education. We are here to help MDE educate the kids across the state. Now that can take on different looks throughout the centuries of what we do from every 10 years. But the goal here is to make sure we're helping in assisting MDE reach those kids that can't be reached in the classroom. And everyone has a TV back in the day. Now everyone has a mobile phone or device that we are on that we can [use to] reach those kids. So our goal is to work with MDE, and also everything that we do when we build content has to have an educational focus. And that's what our educators were there to help us do, is to make sure Between the Lions, everyone remembers Between the Lions, we were the production of Between the Lions for that national program. But it had to have an educational component tied to it. And that what our educators did was make sure that the education component was in the script and it was delivered the way it was supposed to be delivered so kids could learn from that program. It's the same way here today as we may not be making Between the Lions any longer, we still build content, we still want education tied to whatever it is that we do. And our goal is also to make sure that that happens. One of the ways that we are... Helping MDE for schools that don't have teachers in their classroom for classes such as algebra or language arts or history is that we have created teachers teaching that content for a full year, making it on-demand video for them to use in the classroom with a proxy who can administer the tests. So if the school system doesn't have a history teacher in the Delta somewhere they can download our full course accredited classroom online and teach that class and all they have to have is somebody who can administer the tests to record the grades. And that can be done whoever the principal assigns to do that. So those are the things that we're doing to make sure we're helping MDE reach the kids who don't have a teacher because of the teacher shortage. And we're looking at other ways to do as well with the new superintendent so we can continue to fulfill our mission of helping with education.
Frazier The Republican-led Congress, not all, but most think that NPR, PBS is left-leaning, that the news is left leaning. The Republican delegates for Mississippi also voted for the clawback of the funding. In your estimation, do you see a... Because NPR covers so many different types of news. But there are controversial issues like LGBTQ, abortion, diversity, equity, and inclusion. What's left leaning? Do you see our programming as left leaning or NPR's programming as Left Leaning?
Ails I think… look. News has always been beat up for leaning left. I can go back to 1968, I'm that old, when Cronkite got beat up by the Republican committee about being biased. News will always have that situation that they will always take on because they're covering, whether it's a state level legislature or city government or the federal government. That argument's always going to be there. The issue is not to me about. Are you liberal? Are you conservative? It's about balance. Are you providing both sides of the story? And that's the thing that I think NPR has been focused on trying to get done and making sure they're putting every effort to do that.
I've been in meetings with NPR about the balance issue and they have admitted they have not been completely balanced on all issues and they are making every effort to do. That they've hired people to come in and make sure that they are providing that balance.
And we have to also remember we're in an aggregate of news. People only listen within the sliver of a pie during that day. That may be the one day of the week in drive time that they heard an NPR story and all of a sudden they're taking on the perception that they're biased. But did you hear the rest of the stories that they covered the rest of week on that same topic? You have to look at it as an aggregate. Unfortunately, Listeners and viewers don't do that. We have to make sure that we drive them back to the other stories so they can get a well-balanced perspective of the coverage that everyone is providing.
We do that here, I mean, I've made every effort to make our team understand that with our news director that we have to make sure everyone understands the aggregate. Because they do listen in a sliver of a pie, I understand that, that's just the way it's always been. But we have be mission driven on how we cover our stories. That we are balanced on everything. And I think on the national level, they're making every effort to do that. Can they argue that they're not? Everyone can argue that news is not. I mean, I come from a newsroom. I can remember the days when we used to get that and where I come form. But at the end of the day, are you balanced? Can you show the aggregate that you've covered both sides? And that's, I think, what NPR is trying to get done. I hear all the time from people, Well, they have gone liberal over the years. I'm not going to argue with you that whether they have or they haven't. The issue is, are they balanced? Can you go back and show me that they have provided both sides of the story on that issue? If they haven't t, then that's the issue we have to bring up to their attention.
And we've done that because they have not been fair on everything. And they've admitted when they haven t been fair, and they have really been proactive about covering that, changing that, and improving that. So I got to give them some marks on being willing to do that. The other networks will never do that. NPR has been willing to do that.
Frazier In your estimation, is there a possibility that this funding could come back?
Ails I really do think so. It all depends on Congress and how they fund this next FY26 appropriation bill. I do think there's an opportunity there for them to put the funding back in. Remember now, CPB is given to the stations on a two-year forward funding mechanism. By eliminating, clawing back that federal funding, they've basically eliminated the two- year process. Now it's a year-to-year process. So they're now starting to take the budget up, the appropriation budget for FY26, which is due by October, end of September, goes into place in October. And they're working on the funding for that. So we'll see what happens. I think there's still opportunity to get that in there. A lot of congressional delegation has talked about how they were promised that this would be in there in that budget. We'll see whether or not it makes it. Don't know. You never know with politics. You just never know. So we just have to wait and see what happens. But we have to function as though it's not. And we have move forward with that.
Frazier How long can we stay in this same programming process?
Ails Well, if the question is will MPB go away, no.
Frazier How much money do we have to continue with things the way they are?
Ails We have a year. We have funding for FY 25 that we're spending right now that did not get into the conclusion of the callback. So we're functioning now very fine. It's this time next year when we will, we would be implementing the second year funding mechanism of CPB that we don't have. So we'll be looking at going forward how we make changes to our programming if they don't put in. The FY26 budget, a funding mechanism for CPB then.
Frazier Can donations, poor Mississippians, donate enough to fill the gap?
Ails You bet. We're already seeing people starting to increase their giving. I'm hoping more will do that. We need to reach out to our corporate partners that are out there and those corporates who are not partners right at the moment, but can become a partner with us. Our goal is talk to everybody, reach out everyone, and to increase the funding locally to MPB.
MPB has been around since 1970 for the first time on the air. People grew up with MPB. It's a beloved institution in this state. I can't go anywhere.
Frazier Sesame Street?
Ails Yeah, I can go anywhere, I'm on a tour right now with Rotary groups to go talk to them and I've been on the tour for the last year. And I can not go anywhere that someone does not walk up to me and say, Royal, I learned to read or I learned to count from MPB. At the end of the day, that speaks volumes because, look. While we're helping with education, lifelong learning is another part of that as for grownups. Telling the history of this state, telling them all the things that's going on in this state. That's the other sidebar to what we do. And I'm really amazed by the people who not just watch the PBS component, but they watch the MPB component. You know, the history, the documentaries that we build, the documentaries that we work with our independent producers across the state that we air their content on. The WZZQ documentary that we aired on the TV side, I have a T-shirt. My wife has a WZZQ T-Shirt. I was in Atlanta at the airport and TSA officer walks up to me and says, I lived in Mississippi. I used to listen to WZZQ as a kid growing up. I can't go anywhere in this state that someone doesn't walk up to once they know who I am, that they listened or grew up on MPB. It is a beloved, beloved institution. I just want people to know that we've been there for you, now we need the neighborhood to be there for us. Look, even as an independent, we don't wanna be, we wanna be a PBS affiliate, that's the goal. But even if we were an independent TV side of it, we can make this thing work, but we don't wanna lose the PBS kids because that is the most important thing that we have is helping these kids.
Frazier And there's very little children's programming anymore.
Ails Well, you know, a lot of folks will say they can get their children's programming off of Nick Jr. And Nickelodeon. What TV programming on Nickelodeons helps kids read? What TV programing out there helps them count? What TV programs out there help them do what we help them to do when it comes to the content that we deliver? There isn't anything on cable that does that. We're the only ones that do that. We are a unique animal. We know that, but we're unique with a specific mission. And that is to help these kids educate, learn, and grow, and be great citizens of the state of Mississippi. That's our purpose. That's out plan. And that's what we want to keep driving. I do believe good things are going to happen for us. I think Congress will get the money put back in. I'm hopeful that they will. I'm positive that they'll. But at the end of the day, if they don't, that's OK. We'll move forward. We'll make the decisions we need to make, because we are MPB. We're one MPB, which is the mantra I push around all the state, but we're focused on delivering content to the people of the state. We're delivered on lifelong learning, bringing up the history, telling their stories, letting people know what happened in their state, who these great people are, the music that we promote. Those are the things that we want to continue to do and we will continue to do. I have no fear in that. It might look different going forward. Don't know. I have no idea.
Frazier And one question that I do get asked, is this going to affect staffing?
Ails We are state employees. We get funded by the legislature, and we have a fantastic relationship with our legislature. I can't say that enough. Our funding there is solid. We have great friends in the legislature. They understand our mission and what we do, and they have funded us, and we had not. And I don't see this ever being affected on the legislative side of Mississippi.
Frazier Royal Ails , Executive Director, Mississippi Public Broadcasting. Thank you.
